Wednesday, August 24, 2011
But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD
Tom:
Deep conservatives in the Presbyterian Church (USA) are really hurting over the change in ordination standards.
William: Sikhism basically says "be your own place of pilgramage, prayer mat, rosary" in their scriptures, the Adhi Granth.
Regarding who leaves a church and who remains, perhaps those who remain are the LCD (lowest common denominator) ... who knows... God is "the only knower of hearts"
Jimmy Carter left his denomination of years over equal rights issues (I think)
Wally: I thought we were to make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace?
William: Jesus prayed in Gethsemane "Father, may all those you have given to me be ONE even as you and I are ONE." - TELL me please WHERE do you see that unity in the past 2000 years. (I rest my case)
The Russian Archbishop Anthony Khrapovitsky speculated that human salvation was worked at that moment in Gethsemane .. but some feared he had gone too far with that.
John Calvin wrote some interesting things on the importance of unity
I think Calvin was deeply misguided, but the unity stuff is interesting
Various Protestant denominations who reject "limited atonement" as limited to the predestined point out that Moses invited ALL to come and gaze upon the bronze serpent on the pole and be saved... all were invited but some chose not to and perished in the plague ... Sometimes the RC mass says "this blood shed for many " and sometimes "shed for ALL" ... both can be correct... all were invited but not all made the free will choice to avail themselves ... I asked a Marist Brother what he would answer if a Protestant asked "are you saved" and he replied "I would say I am REDEEMED" ... SO I said what's the difference.... He said "Imagine ten prisoners in jail cells and someone pays their bail so the jailor unlocks the doors... 8 leave but 2 remain.
All have been redeemed... but only eight make the free will choice to cooperate and avail themselves of that redemption
My take has always been.... WHY beat yourselves up trying to win the acceptance of those who will never give it.... when you have everything you need to have your own church, IF you have faith... I mean Augustine said "believe and you have ALREADY eaten of the Eucharist" or for that matter why knock yourself out pounding a square peg in a round hole to find the total U.U. message in scriptures when perhaps it is not there.... dont forget that the truths of U.U. were in part the wisdom of people like Thoreau who were loners and outcasts from main stream society.
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
We may view the above passage in an interesting fashion. Imagine that EACH of us says "But as for me and my household, we shall serve OUR CONCEPTION of the Lord in the manner which seems to us appropriate." And is this not what has happened historically for 2000 years?
@William - I, as someone who was raised to be independent, prone to iconoclasm, and never a "fashion plate", I agree in large part to your two comments above. Having said that, it is also quite easy to use that reasoning to create a "separate but equal" system.
William replies: What is to stop you from choosing for yourself.... why do you need the approval of others... Even the uncle of Esther, Mordecai, wrote to her and said "It is in your power if you so choose to help your people. If you choose not to, the help will come from elsewhere but you shall not share in the reward."
What THEY do is THEIR business.... we need not judge... we will only answer for ourselves at the judgment
i mean, if there is a judgment
Perhaps some of you would like to read Jorge Luis Borges short story "The Heretic" about a man who persecutes and finally slays an heresiarch and then dies himself only to learn that God saw BOTH as an integral part of the plan
@ William - you asked "What is to stop you from choosing for yourself.... "
I'm not sure to whom that question is pointed. If it is directed at me, nothing! I don't need ANY church, thank you. But others are conditioned to need it, even when it hurts them badly. Even so, I'm still not quite sure who you're trying to convince, or why.
I'm not sure to whom that question is pointed. If it is directed at me, nothing! I don't need ANY church, thank you. But others are conditioned to need it, even when it hurts them badly. Even so, I'm still not quite sure who you're trying to convince, or why.
William replies: Consider the parable about those two groups at the judgment... the first say "Lord, Lord we worked miracles in your name" ... the first group was convinced they had that "one true faith" and WHY WERE THEY FIRST.... for the simple reason that they were presumptuous and ran ahead of the second group, eager to be praised.... the second group dragged their feet in dread and were SHOCKED when they heard "I was hungry and you fed me; naked and you clothed me" AND THEY ARE SO honest that they question the judge who has just pronounced them INNOCENT and said "WHEN did we do all these things?" --- if you stood before a harsh judge who pronounce you innocent... WOULD YOU ARGUE ABOUT IT... think it over
I talk to myself... those who have ears, let them hear
Dont be such a literal fundamentalist... I may have said YOU but I mean ANYONE, EVERYONE.. FOR WHAT REASON DOES ANYONE AT ANY TIME IN ANY PLACE scrape and grovel for the approval of those who will never approve....
I type 60 wpm... i cant always be Shakespeare or Wm. F. Buckley, Jr.
Look at Dietrich Bonhoeffer's "The Cost of Discipleship" and "Cheap Grace" (grace without discipleship).... did Bonhoeffer worry about who approved of him? I dont think so
If anyone wonder who it is that I address or what my goal is... that is perhaps because they are conditioned to vain disputation... it is none of my business what any of you do, but the thread spoke of suffering so these are my words of consolation to anyone who finds some value in them... I dont know any of you... you are words on a screen...
Eleanor Roosevelt said "No one can demean you without your consent." That sort of fits into this hurt thing.
Any of you.... one does not have to convince others, one needs merely convince oneself
Every attempt at disputation is in some fashion a bid for approval in the sense of consent, agreement, ... If you look at my posting since 1998 I rarely address any individual, I simply react to ideas and address issues... there are over 6 billion people on the planet... if I tried to say "hello" to each one and they were all lined up and I took 5 seconds per person, it would take me 950 years, do the math. So what purpose would it serve for me to argue with anyone here or seek their agreement?
Come to think of it, why in the world would anyone in the world assume that I am addressing them in particular or disputing with them... why would I expect an answer... my questions were rhetorical. If what I say is useless then simply ignore it.
Jesus never said "where ever 2 or 3 million are gathered " nor "2 or 3 thousand" ... simply "two or three in my name..." that might mean that one can only expect to find two or three like minded ... of course if someone insists on engaging and challenging others then there will always be discord... I think that the beliefs of a politician should be deeply personal and should not enter into the politics... Gandhi was once asked by a journalist regarding his beliefs and Gandhi explained that this is "a deeply private matter between myself and God"
If someone rejects me, that is THEIR problem, not my problem.
I might not agree with Jimmy Carter on everything or even many things but I admire his courage to take Palestines side in "Peace not Apartheid" and to meet with Hamas and to leave his church...
When Lord Acton said "power tends to corrupt" I understand that as human corporate endeavors, which are corrupt and corrupting, whether ecclesiastical, academic, political. That's why you have a loner like Thoreau as the first to use the phrase "human rights" in his essay "On Civil Disobedience."
