Literary Discussions

someone wrote:

Many philosophers have tried to prove that God exists. Some of the
various proofs became so famous that they were given names. Likewise,
with equal vigour many philosophers have challenged these proofs. In
18th century, Kant suggested that the proof of Gods existence was not
provable and that some other aspect of reason must be considered as
the source of the idea of God. He postulated that the existence of
God was the grounds for the necessary connection between virtue and
happiness. Subsequently, Kierkegaard suggests three levels of
existence for humanity. The first is his "aesthetic stage",
the second his "ethical stage" and the third his "religious" stage.
He who lives at the "aesthetic stage" grasps enjoyment. Good is
whatever is beautiful, satisfying or pleasant. He is a slave to his
desires and moods. "Ethical man" tries to live by the law of morels.
Whether he acts correctly or not in a given situation is less
important than that he has in fact a view of what is ethical and
attempts to act "correctly". (Socrates) Kirkigaard's idea of
the "religious man", is postulated from the idea that "ethical man"
comes to realise that lack of knowledge of situations from an ethical
viewpoint will lead him necessarily to making inaccurate ethical
choices.

This leads to a sense of guilt and the need to leap by an act of
faith into a "religious existence" The idea of faith in the
connection between virtuous living and happiness seems to be an
important motivator for many Christians in making their leap to
a "religious existence". I am interested to know to what extent this
statement applies to different religious philosophies.

Sitaram's response:

Excellent post!

So many Religions have a quid-pro-quo aspect (something for
something). IF you do these good things, and abstain from these bad
things, THEN you will receive and enjoy THESE good things, OTHERWISE,
you will be deprived of good things and suffer these BAD things.

In Christianity, we see that the soul has a beginning in time: Psalm
139:6 "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in
thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were
fashioned, when as yet there was none of them" and Hebrews 9:27 "And
it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."
So he soul is immortal, but not eternal, for it has a beginning in
time. And based on the Judgment, the soul is either contemned to
everlasting death (the worm that does not die, the wailing, the
gnashing of teeth), or it is rewarded with everlasting life ; Isaiah
64:4 "For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor
perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee,
what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him." And 1
Corinthians 2:9 "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear
heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which
God hath prepared for them that love him."

In Hinduism, we read in the Bhagavad-Gita, Lord Krishna telling
Arjuna, "There was never a time when you were not or when I was not.
You do not remember your births but I remember all my re-births and
incarnations." So, in Hinduism, the soul (jiva, atman) has NO
BEGINNING in time, It is a spark from the great Light of Brahman. The
soul is truly ETERNAL as opposed to the simple IMMORTALITY of
Christianity. But, it seems to me that Hinduism goes beyond the QUID-
PRO-QUO mentality. Lord Krishna says in the Gita that He receives all
worship, offerings and prayers, even from those ignorant of His
true nature. And on the walls of the ancient Temple of Sri
Vinkanteshera in Tirupati there is an inscription which says "All
offerings everyware, come to Me." In fact, else where in the Gita,
Lord Krsna says "Out of THOUSANDS , hardly ONE seeks me, and out of
THOUSANDS WHO DO seek Me, hardly ONE comprehends my true nature. So
we see here a concept of God who does not expect all mankind to know
Him or understand Him or to have correct doctrinal belief concerning
Him. How different this picture of God is from the Old
Testament verses in which God says "My name is Jealous", Exodus
34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name
is Jealous, is a jealous God."

Our modern physics understands matter as primordial atoms, made of
even more primordial sub-atomic particles, whose origin in time is
perhaps the first moment of the Big Bang, but otherwise unknown. And
these atoms and sub-atomic particles are RECYCLED in a sort of
TRANSMIGRATION, as nebulous gas clouds congeal to form suns, and suns
cast out streams which become planets, and planets give off material
to become moons, and the atoms which yesterday were in an apple tree,
are today a part of my bloodstream, and tomorrow will be in
a mosquitoes wing. Also, in modern physics, we see great laws of
preservation or conservation of matter and energy in the various aws
of thermodynamics and in Einstein's equations. And yet, for Jewish,
Christian and Islamic theologies, each soul is created once, and
never recycled.

I once heard an Islamic theologian say that, since God (Allah)
desired to create the world, He must of necessity create it as OTHER
than Himself, and since He is PERFECT, therefore, of necessity, the
world that He creates must be OTHER, and therefore IMPERFECT. This
NECESSITY which God is under must be POWERFUL INDEED, if it can
constrain God's actions!

I read another theologian elsewhere (I cant remember where) saying
that since God had nothing but Himself, He created the world OUT OF
HIMSELF. Now this notion sounds more Hindu. Consciousness IN ANYFORM,
whether a humans, a dogs, or a mosquito's is a spark from that
CONSCIOUSNESS which is Brahman.

In Isaiah 55:7,8 we read "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the
unrighteous man his THOUGHTS: and let him return unto the LORD, and
he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly
pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways
my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the
earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than
your thoughts." In this passage, we see God having THOUGHTS
(i.e. CONSCIOUSNESS), albeit not at the same level or quality as
HUMAN THOUGHTS (CONSCIOUSNESS), but THOUGHTS nonetheless.

Jesus mentions that a sparrow, which is sold for a few cents, cannot
fall from the sky, but the Heavenly Father knows. Most westerners
envision God somewhere in Heaven with his Supernatural TELESCOPE
watching that sparrow fall from heaven. But from the point of view of
the Svetasvatara Upanisad (which describes each being as a tree with
two birds, one the individual doer, and the other the Paramatman
beholder, God), God does not see the sparrow fall from His Heavenly
Telescope, from some distant vantage point, BUT FROM INSIDE THE
SPARROW, as the INDWELLING Paramatman. Western theologies (and I
consider Islam western, despite the geography of Mecca) consider the
material universe as something which God creates as separate from
Himself. He winds it up and sets it running, like the Energizer
Bunny of Duracel Battery Fame. God gives the material universe a set
of immutable laws, and gives creatures free-will, and then stands
back to see what happens, intervening only occasionally to suspend
those physical laws in the form of a miracle. Some western theologies
even posit that God intentionally limits himself and gives up some of
His Omniscience and Omnipotence, and sacrifices His Divine
Foreknowledge of all future events, in order to make this Energizer
Bunny Universe of ours work properly. And, of course, there is ONLY
ONE UNIVERSE, which, in parallel with the western concept of the
Soul, was created at a point in time, but which IS NOT IMMORTAL. At
some point, as we read in Isaiah 34:4 an Revelation g:14 "And all the
host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled
together as a scroll: as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a
falling fig from the fig tree……. And the heaven departed as a
scroll
when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved
out of their places." Hence, in the Western view, the TIME-SPACE
continuum ceases, much like Stephen Hawkings "A Brief History of
Time". And at the End of Time, at the End of Space, we read in the
Book of Revelation 7:15-17 "Therefore are they before the throne of
God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth
on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more,
neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any
heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed
them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God
shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." TIME-SPACE ceases, and it
is GOD who becomes their LIGHT, their FOOD, their RAYMENT, their
SHELTER. And is not this concept in Revelation, of God being the
space, light, food and raiment, IS NOT THIS CONCEPT STRANGELY
PANTHEISTIC (namely that God IS all things). One of the words in the
Torah for God is MAKOM, which means PLACE or SPACE. Hence, the
Talmudic saying, "God is the PLACE of the Universe. God is not IN the
Universe." In face the Jewish Mystical Kaballah has a notion of Tsim
Tsum (or Zim Zum, which means CONTRACTION or WITHDRAWEL). God is such
a FULLNESS, COMPLETENESS, PERFECTION, that He must CONTRACT AND
WITHDRAW, to make a PLACE (Makom) for the Universe. Strangely, for
western minds, the physical, material universe is somehow dirty and
defiling, and it is blasphemous to suggest that God IS the Universe,
or that the Universe is somehow MADE out of Godstuff. And yet these
theologies insist that God is "everywhere present and fillest all
things" (as in the ancient Greek prayer 'O Pantaxou paron kai ta
Panta pleiron').

Modern Physics and our friend Stephen Hawkings postulates that there
are BLACK HOLES, perhaps COUNTLESS NUMBERS OF BLACK HOLES scattered
throughout our universe. Some physicists postulate that our very
Universe itself is INSIDE a black hole. The notion is that inside
each black hole is ANOTHER BIG BANG, another expanding TIME-SPACE
Continuum, a Reimann-Space, finite but unbounded. Now Hinduism sees
Creation, Preservation, and Destruction as a continuous cycle. This
Black Hole notion extends such a notion to a MULTITUDE OF UNIVERSES
(Big Bangs) all nicely tucked one inside the other, like N-
Dimensional Russian Dolls (where each doll has a smaller doll
inside). And each "Universe" might be at a different stage of
development, each with its Avatars, its Lord Rams battling Ravanna,
its Lord Krishnas playing their flutes, its Buddhas awakening and its
Christs resurrecting.

Getting back to our QUID PRO QUO observation about western
theologies, we may contrast with a story from the Mahabharat (I would
love to know the chapter and verse if someone has it please email).
There is a King and Queen who are driven into exile from their
kingdom and are forced to live in a simple hut in sight of the
majestic Himalaya Mountains. The King is a very religious
person and always performs his prayers and offerings, in good times
and in
bad. One day, the Queen emerges from their impoverished hut and sees
the King ardently engaged in prayer and worship. She asks him, "Why
do you continue to worship God so ardently, seeing that we have been
deprived of all our riches, and live in such poverty?" The King
points to the majestic Himalaya Mountains in the distance and
says, "See how grand, majestic and beautiful the Himalayas are! Do
those mountains bear some guilt for our misfortunes? Should
I cease to gaze upon them and admire them and praise them, and spite
my eyes and my senses to behold them no more, simply because of my
misfortune?"

Only a very few actual writings and prayers have come down to us from
Lord Chaitanya , the sixteenth century Vaishnav saint. One of those
prayers basically says, "O Lord, I do not ask for money, or
pleasures, or even liberation from the cycle of birth and death, but
only to serve at Your Lotus Feet life after life, even if your foot
should crush me." We see that when Lord Ram shot the wicked Balin,
who had usurped his brothers throne, Lord Ram had compassion upon him
and offered to heal his wound. But Balin replied, "How many lifetimes
might come and go without receiving the honor to die at
the hand of the Lords' Avatar." So Balin was seeking Union and
Moksha, rather that further life and enjoyments.

Christianity has a curious habit of asking other people for their
prayers. "Pray for me because I am sick. Pray for my parents. Pray
for my son and daughter. Pray for that nation torn by war, plague and
famine." Epictetus made an interesting observation in his Discourses.
He wrote, "Why do you pray to Jupiter for the safety of your son
before he embarks upon a long journey.
Why not ask Jupiter for the Equanimity of an Even-Keeled Spirit, to
endure whatever good or bad fortune might result." Lord Krishnas,
similarly, says to Arjuna, "It is necessary that Joys and Sorrows
should enter each persons life, but he who endures them with
Equanimity and a balanced spirit is the True Yogin and master of the
Self." The Western, quid pro quo notion of prayer is to ask for
something. The Hindu notion is that each good and ill that we suffer
is our very own doing; a karmic consequence of some thought or
action from this life or a previous life. And furthermore, each good
and ill that we suffer is for our benefit. King Solomon basically
said (if I may paraphrase his writings) : "Every son whom the Lord
loves he chastens every one whom He receives, and places their souls
in the fire of adversity, until they reach a seven-fold purity like
gold in the furnace." There is a sort of impertinence in the notion
of asking God to alter our circumstances, if they are for our own
benefit and instruction. Such supplicatory prayer is almost a
lack of faith in Divine Wisdom, Mercy and Providence and a sort of
insult to God. And the insult is compounded when we do not even offer
such prayers ourselves but ask others to do it for us. If we had an
important favor to ask of a King, and we sent a relative, to ask on
our behalf, what would that King thing. It is for a busy King to
dispatch a messenger to us, and we are honored by such a visit but it
is our place to petition in person, if we are to even petition at
all.

The early Greek theologians told a parable about the three types of
devotion of believers; the Slave, the Hired Hand, and the true-born
Son. The Slave acts out of fear of punishment. The Hired Hand acts
from hope of reward. The true-born Son acts neither from fear of
punishment nor from hope of reward but from selfless love of the
Father. I am somehow reminded at this moment, as I write these words,
of Chaitanya's words concerning "the Lord's CAUSELESS MERCY", and
that verse in the Gita where Lord Krishna says (paraphrasing),
"What my Devotee has achieved, I preserve from birth to birth, and
what my Devotee lacks, I supplement and provide through Grace." In
the oddest sort of way, we see that God does not create the physical
Universe, or sentient beings as His goal. What God CREATES or RE-
CREATES, IS GOD. Even an Greek Bishop of the first centuries
said, "God became man so that Man might become
God."

Atheists and Agnostics might speak about man creating God.
Theologians might speak about God creating the Universe and mankind.
But there is in Hinduism, I suspect, some talk of God CREATING GOD
through the perfection of all beings in His Divine Lila or Pass-
Times.

(reply from Sidhartha):

Sitaram,

I read through your post. Interesting. I am reminded of an answer I
received for my question regarding creation.

This individual pointed me to a fractal video (those cool iterative
pictures). He told me look at it, that is Brahman he said, and then
he set the fractal into motion, and the movie went into one of the
fractals aspects, and he said, that is you, and the movie kept
zooming into the aspect and then after a few zooms, the original
fractal came at me again.

I thought this to be a nice analogy of Brahman. The Supreme without a
beginning in time nor an end. So the person suggested that the
question regarding creation is trivial, because one cannot put a
finger on where it all began.