Literary Discussions

Tradition produced Scriptures. Scriptures did not produce Tradition. The Book of Job speaks of God as having such power over human reason that it may become foolishness. I will look up that passage. For the Catholic, I should imagine, God i...s synonymous with Goodness BUT God is beyond our human comprehension. Solomon said "there are ways that seem good but the end thereof is death. When Josephs brethern came to him in Egypt to ask forgiveness... Joseph said "You intended evil but G-d transformed your evil into Good" ... I am posting this in hast because FB and browser are unstable... one may simply have faith or hope that all is for the good, but our reason is weak and the true nature of good is beyond our comprehension. Faith is a gift given to some and understand follows from faith, but only enough understanding as is necessary to be salvific - Maximus the Confessor

Bezaleel was the architect of the first temple. One of the early theologians wrote "be, therefore, a spiritual Bezaleel" meaning that Bezaleel took some subjective liberty in following the plan of the temple. So if we interpret or embellish we must remain in the spirit of the tradition.

Aquinas is in error in the Summa stating that understanding comes first and faith follows from understanding. Maximus the Confessor is correct stating that faith comes first as a give and understanding comes from that gift of faith. Saints are sinners for all have sinned and fallen short... and saints are not infallible.

http://williambuell.posterous.com/be-thou-a-spiritual-bezaleel

http://bible.cc/job/12-25.htm

We must reflect that the fall from paradise began with the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. In Hebrew, in Genesis 1:1, "darkness and void" is "Tohu va Bohu" which is already present. The source of all sin is pride and it is difficult to acquire understanding yet avoid pride.

Jaroslav Pelikan takes Paul's passagehttp://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-13.htm and interprets FAITH as doctrinal creed (e.g. The Nicene Creed - I believe in one God") ... so Pelikan suggests that LOVE is more important than doctrine. I am wondering if love in the Greek is really the word for charity. I must search.

All of the above is the "religious answer" - for the secular age of reason and technology, we do become like gods in the sense that we can alter genetic and molecular structures... but since moral/ethical GOOD is beyond our grasp, therefore... our technology may be our destruction -- perhaps the enduring good was with the Neanderthal who lived in harmony with the environment and was hardy through natural selection, needing no health care.

We are not told that the Tohu Va Bohu was created but rather simply IS

We fell through disobedience which involved questioning which involved reason. Salvation, if there is salvation, comes through unquestioning obedience where one crucifies the self will. Think of Christ in the tomb as the divine kenosis or emptying.

Ptolemy's Almagist is solid reasoning AND is accurate but does not get at the truth of cosmology. Reduction ad absurdum proofs USE what is false to arrive at what is true in the context of some axiomatic system but we know from the work of Kurt Godel and axiomatic systems are relative and not absolute so we feel less certainty today than Socrates and Euclid felt, or Descartes for that matter.

Solomon prayed for wisdom and God promised Solomon that he would be wiser than any man who came before and ALSO wiser than any who would com after. Jesus said "a WISER than a Solomon is in your midst" but Jesus is not simply anthropos but Theos-anthropos.

Hans Kung put it all in a nutshell on page 1 of "On Being Christian" ... WHY do we need Christ.... Why can we not simply lead good lives as rational humanists?

Maimonides states that "Righteousness is not a goal or end but merely a preparation for participation in a future world (of the Tikun Olam / Apokatastasis , I imagine)

Kung is still a priest, still in communion BUT he raised serious questions about the doctrine of Papal infallibility. But still .... IF you believe that REASON and UNDERSTANDING come first and faith follows.... then you are faced with the p...roblem of answering Kung's question....WHY do we need an actual incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, if reason and understanding is sufficient to persuade us to lead a life which saves

You have no choice but to be stuck in the dynamics of your own grand narrative (with all due respect) PLUS your opening post hints you were at a loss as to how to answer.??!!

Luther of the Reformation became trapped in the grand narrative which he constructed... and Charles Stanley is now trapped in Stanley's grand narrative

But if understanding is prior to faith, and you already have Aquinas and Augustine, and the host of others... then what is lacking.... all should follow as a grand syllogism, no?

The five foolish virgins WERE VIRGINS (possessed purity) AND they possessed oil, only not sufficient oil. Where does REASON come into play in any of the parables. I say if you cannot find the role of REASON in the parables then you have failed.

as I see it... for the first 10 years or MORE after the ascension there was NO New Testament, and yet somehow, those Christians, many illiterate , has all that was necessary and sufficient for salvation. So what role does REASON play.... Did Aquinas make any errors. Aquinas was not Pope so you cannot claim papal infallibility. Furthermore, we may assume that in the first 800 years the Church had everything that was necessary and sufficient for those who worked out their salvation. Now "tradition" evolved over the centuries. But as I see it you have a very difficult task to reconcile your notions of "reason" with the history of the early Church.

But, was it "comprehension" that saved people, and do all who comprehend repent and work out their salvation with fear and trembling? We all know that smoking causes serious illnesses and such knowledge or understanding is necessary but, obviously, not sufficient for all to give up smoking.